I would probably have some respect for the right wingers if they would throw out the excuses and spins and just be freaking honest.
These guys are outraged because President Obama wants to close Gitmo. They give all their right wing propaganda about how it keeps America safe and other crap about enhanced interrogation. "These people want to kill us." We know. It comes down to this. They just want the inmates at Gitmo to suffer as much as possible.
Look man. We all agree that for the most part the Gitmo inmates are scumbags. Some, maybe most of them have been there for years. Any useful information they had we would have gotten already if it was possible. Now you just want to torture these thugs. So just admit it. Then you will have a small amount of integrity when you make your pro torture arguments next time.
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Of the nearly 800 Gitmo detainees, 550 were eventually released WITHOUT being charged. Of the remaining detainees, only three have been prosecuted and convicted.
I certainly want the perpetrators of 9/11 brought to justice. I want them convicted and punished.
What I don't want is the representatives of my country disregarding the laws of our land by suspending habeus corpus, torturing individuals and keeping them locked up indefinitely. This is not in keeping with the Constitution of my country, nor does it reflect the integrity of its people.
This kind of brutality we expect from the tyrannical feifdoms of the world - and if we engage in such acts and support such acts, what does that make us?
From what I have read so far, the new administration wants to close down the facility as soon as possible. They also want to review the cases against the remaining detainees (if there actually is a case) and proceed from there to ensure that what is served is justice - not the maniacal demands of a rabid mob out for blood;
t101,
I'll admit it. These scumbags need to be punished by being kept in the Caribbean. The warm weather must be hell to endure. My question is if Gitmo is closed where will these fine gentlemen be stashed. They're about as popular as nuclear waste, or in Kennedy's case, a wind farm.
I look forward to the food fight over relocating them and how the massive cost will be paid. Of course, they could make it part of the bailout, it is a prison after all. Sorry, bad joke alert.
Thanks for the visits.
Get your facts straight about Gitmo.
The people who were "torturing" inmates were caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law, and it has never happened again.
The International Red Cross and other organizations are on-site and are seeing to that.
Knock it off already.
Abu Ghrab enlisted personell were prosecuted for mistreatment. I don't recall any personell from Guantanamo being prosecuted.
One of Bush's people admitted using torture.
As far as Gitmo, I look at things realistically. The world would love us if we closed it. Move the bad guys to a prison in Northern Minnesota or some Mississippi Bayou. Weather sucks and bugs are ridiculous. The creeps will be even more miserable. Gitmo closed and terrorists are miserable. Something for both of us Pasadena Man.
Obviously, everyone at GITMO is guilty...and I must have missed the trials where their sentences were issued.
Out of 800 we released 550 which means that 69% of those detained were not of any value, and most likely should not have been there in the first place.
So now we have released 550 and you can be sure that they are not waving the American flag. Which means we created 550 potential terrorists to hold onto 250...
Hmm....
PCC, how about throwing a link in there to show us when and where anyone was punished for actions taken at Guantanamo?
Sorry to be a little skeptical of anonymous web commenters.
From a Constitutional standpoint, Gitmo is an abomination, and Bush should've been removed from office and incarcerated just for suggesting it (he should've also gotten prosecuted for that miscarriage we know as the Patriot Act, but I digress). For American citizens, Gitmo is the equivalent of raping the Bill of Rights. As far as the foreign nationalist detainees are concerned, I'm pretty sure that kidnapping is still illegal. If we've got something on them, then charge them and prosecute them; otherwise let them go. Like Flippers said in Hoodwinked, you can't just lock up people for being creepy.
If you want to close Camps Delta and Echo at Guantanamo Bay (the two facilities where we're holding people) fine, but you have an obligation to say exactly what we should do with them. "Law and Order Teacher" asked this question, and none of you have even addressed it.
Frankly, most of what I read here is just ranting.
I don't have time go to through everything, but here are a few thoughts on the matter:
rockyne said "I certainly want the perpetrators of 9/11 brought to justice. I want them convicted and punished."
Fine, but they represent a tiny percentage of our enemies. Fact is we face a Global Insurgency made up of Jihadists that goes far beyond 9/11. Without going into detail it's made up of Wahabists, the Muslim Brotherhood, Deobandists, and Khomeinists.
TAO said "Out of 800 we released 550 which means that 69% of those detained were not of any value, and most likely should not have been there in the first place."
My, how easy it is for you to write those words. I'm sure our troops in the field would be very happy to have you go out with them so you can point out which of the people they run across are jihadists and which are not.
Truth101 wrote "As far as Gitmo, I look at things realistically. The world would love us if we closed it."
Can you really believe that? We would get some public short term benefit, yes. But you're going to find out that when Obama tries to do something with the prisoners there most all other countries won't even want them. They want us to do the hard work. Second, is the fallacy of grievances that we can overcome (see Qadiya to Qadiya; "cause to cause"
. "the rest of the world" is far too simplistic a way of looking at things. Different parts of the world want different things. Europe wants to die peacefully without any fuss. The Muslims want us to adopt Islam Many third-world countries just want our money.
Two more issues:
One, the whole issue of legal status is complicated. Essentially, though, they don't meet the requirements set forth in the "Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War" to qualify as legal combatants. Nor do they qualify as criminals as is traditionally understood. Long story short, we can legally keep them as long as we like with no trials. We should set up a better tribunal system, but that's another argument.
Second and last is the attitude of most of you here. You take the position that the US must do everything absolutely perfectly, that we must be 100% above reproach, or we become the enemy and the president must be impeached etc. I read only one or two throw-away phrases about the enemy. It's a failure of perspective that I find all too common on the left. If you want a more technical discussion see Comparative Justice as part of Just War Theory.
"As far as Gitmo, I look at things realistically. The world would love us if we closed it."
Realistic? Holy crap, Truth, you're smelling your own farts again.
Armed and Christian, are you a Constitutional Attorney? Because there are a bunch of those that found that Bush was allowed to do exactly what he did. There are a lot that said he couldn't, I know. But it is not as cut and dried as you make it to be. If we are all being honest, you should admit that YOU don't like gitmo or the Patriot Act, but you have no idea whether it was in Bush's purview to do these things.
Also, it is not as though he declared Marshall Law and forced the Patriot Act on the country. It was put to vote and passed. It was not overturned by the Supreme Court. If the world were as absolute and black and white as you are naive enough to suggest, how could Bush remain president until the end of his SECOND term?
I get that you don't like him, I respect how you arrived at the conclusion that you don't like him. But, you need to stop there, or you prove your ignorance.
Dammit, Redhunter, beat me to the punch. I didn't imagine Truth's "realistic" comment could sit unmolested for long.
Why do you right wing fools continue to excuse Bush policy? It's a failure on all counts.
Senor: you and I were raised around politics. The appearance goes a long way. Close Gitmo and Obama always has credibility when he says we respect human rights. I've been to Norther Minnesota. The 40 days when the weather doesn't suck the mosquitos eat you alive. The terrorists will beg to go back to Cuba. But a nice picture of a prison next to a pretty lake is great propaganda.
I don't know how many prisoners were and are at Gitmo. They are there though so they could be interrogate however brutally the interrogators wanted. I will not apologise for being against torture.
Senor: you're as well informed and as smart as anyone I've ever read on any blog. You know that the Bush Justice Dept. was stacked with lawyers that found anything he wanted to be legal legal. The Supreme Court had a majority in his favor. They gave him the election in 2000. It's pretty easy to win when you pick the judge buddy.
truth 101...you say "the world would love us if we closed it" (Gitmo)
Sorry mate, here's at least one citizen of the southern hemisphere who disagrees and wants to know where the gitmo inmates are heading.
Like it or not we are all at war, and I say that with a degree of guilt, since my country (New Zealand) is not pulling its weight, leaving it as always to Uncle Sam.
I fully agree with Tom the Redhunter, we have a fundamentalist, fanatic enemy to deal with...and its deadly peril to appease the beheaders and suicide bombers...
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