There is much ado about cloture and filibusters going on now. We have to remember that Democrats have had to use the filibuster, or threat, to keep many wacko Bush appointees from becoming judges. So it ain't all bad.
It's similar to the situation we (The Good Guys) face with the health insurance reform bill. We're all pissed it doesn't have many reforms that would make it a truly great bill. And even though this may look to many of us like Congress baked us a shit pie, we're just going to have to put some Cool Whip on it and move on. As TomCat has been telling us, it's a start.
46 comments:
It would be better to start over than pass this wealthcare bill. It will slash Medicare, fine people who can't pay for premiums that will increase as a result, and it will put unconscionable restrictions on abortion.
This bill is a huge gift to the HMOs and health insurers, and it is a huge attack on the middle class on the poor.
Truth,
as much as I respect you and TomCat I have to agree with libhom on this bill.
What is frustrating is we're likely to hear the Right say they'd opposed this bill all along which is at best disingenuous.
They opposed any form of HCR, especially anything which would help working class people,ie single payer.
So while people like libhom and myself feel this thing has been gutted like a fish and is no longer even recognizable as HCR, our opposition is principled rather than reactionary.
My well known sense of humor is tempered with paragmatic realism gentlemen.
I don't like it either. But the Dems( Obama) need this victory on health insurance reform or as Bill Clinton said, we may not get another chance.
I don't see how abandoning the Dems and President Obama after only a year in office does anything but play into the hands of the republicans. Thump them when they're wrong for sure. Leave government to the republicans? No way.
NONSENSE--- kill it, at start anew. I Say. This is a scam. The Dems are coming out now to make this look like a victory so they can go home and scam their people some more. This is a Shill Bill for the corps. More lip service is just more lip stick on a filthy pig. The party of NO, and the party of CAVE IN continues.
Truth: You are 1,000% right. To drop the bill would be absolute folly. Talk about moving backwards!
And boy, would this give the already arrogant Republicans just something else to smirk about.
How totally foolish. We Democrats have too much of an all or nothing attitude and that ain't the way politics works. We're beginning to sound like the Republicans - if I can't be captain, I'm going to take my ball and go home. What a bunch of whiners.
It may not be what we want but damnit, it's better than nothing. Think of all the Americans this would hurt by killing it.
Maybe you don't like Reid, but he and 59 others have worked against a boat-load of lies and dirty politics to get this far. Of course there have been compromises. Grow up.
Hopefully we can build on this, but - as Clinton said - if we don't pass it, we'll never get another opportunity.
"...as Bill Clinton said, we may not get another chance"
now this is an interesting take on this. now just why would you think that you won't have another chance? what is it that you fear so much, truth?
As Abe lincoln said Griper "Public opinion is everything."
Fear? Not for myself. I've done okay for my Union and coworkers. It's my children and yours I fear for Griper. It's those that didn't have the fortune to get into situations I did. This isn't a class or education thing either. Highly educated people are finding their jobs outsourced. Xrays and MRI's are being read by technicians in India putting these Americans out of work. Engineering firms are exporting work to foreingn lands. Right wingers are singing the praises of countries that exploit workers with no safety laws or job benefits.
I fear for these people Griper. And even the deluded masses that vote republican despite their own economic woes because of belief or just plain blind idiocy, I fear for.
I want a victory because these are the people the right exploits with it's misleading messages. Giving the republicans a victory gives them even more propaganda.
We'll get health care right eventually. I'd like to do it faster like Libhom and OSO. But it won't get done that way. We have to take our victories and build on them.
It's kind of like asking for a raise. You ask for more than you know you'll get and then bargain down.
very nice misleading answer, truth. but, i'll take a little burden off of those broad shoulders of yours.
you need not fear for my children. they were taught the economics of life and know the responsibilities that come with their liberty.
and i taught them well the consequences of not taking good care of those responsibilities along with the consequences of allowing others to do what they should do for themselves.
so, i'll ask the question again in terms i hope it will be easier for you to understand. what is it you fear in regards to the fact that if this bill does not pass, that you won't have another chance?
Typical right wing response Griper. I gave you truth and concern about fellow Americans and you chose to not understand.
All you questions were answered. I suggest you reread my response to you three or four more times.
"and i taught them well the consequences of not taking good care of those responsibilities along with the consequences of allowing others to do what they should do for themselves."--TG
So was Jesus wrong when he exhorted people to help those who were less fortunate?
"On the last day, Jesus will say to those on His right hand, "Come, enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me." Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, "Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink, I was sick and you did not visit me." These will ask Him, "When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?" And Jesus will answer them, "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"
I think that for everyone who calls him/herself a Christian, Jesus' words are pretty clear. He commands Christians to help those who cannot help themselves--the sick included.
For when you do not help the sick, the hungry, the homeless you reject Christ.
I don't read anything in that simple exhortation from the Christian god about personal responsibility. Nothing. Jesus does not say a word about the poor, the sick, and the hungry refusing other people's help.
I also don't see anything in that New Testament passage where Christ warns people about "the consequences of allowing others to do what they should do for themselves."
That is a Conservative tenet--expecting people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, even when they have no boots--and expecting their government to look the other way when they are most in need.
Except. Except. There is welfare for the rich. Always. Just ask people like Michelle Bachmann, whose family enjoys a quarter of a million dollars in farm subsidies from the government--and other fiscal conservatives like Sens. Grassley and Brownback who also enjoy government subsidies, while at the same time warning their constituencies about "socialism."
This health care bill is not perfect, but neither are we, as a country. But, as Mr. Obama has reminded us, our job is to make America a "more perfect Union."
Shaw Kenawe,
good example from Scripture. I don't understand the meanness, for lack of a better term.I speak with so many on the right who seem to enjoy others suffering, like they deserved it.
The belief that people are poor cause they want to be poor, sick cause they didn't work hard enough.
Self-righteousness, I guess that's what it is.I have insurance and YOU don't.
Truth101 is right. Pass the bill now and fight to improve it later. If the bill is killed, they will not go back to the drawing board. We will simply get nothing. Next year is an election year. Congress will be even more timid around anything controversial.
Anyway, what makes anyone think that another round of sausage-making under the same rules would produce any better of a result?
There's a more fundamental problem and solution that everyone is overlooking (see here).
shaw,
well hello again. tis nice seeing the lovely once more. and how have ya been doing?
and shaw i don't see anything in that biblical passage that would suggest the use of "force" as the means to help people. in fact every word in that passage would indicate that help has to be voluntary and consensual.
in fact the most pertinant part of that passage to this issue says "visit the sick" not "pay his medical bills"
truth,
that's ok. i understood your response as written but if you choose not to answer my question as written, that is fine with me.
I agree Truth, what different bill would come out of another try?? The rethugs will never come on board, nothing would be different. They don't want a bill like this from a dem president and what makes it a thousand times worse is he is a black president!! Let them go down in history as the party of NO who turned their backs on progress. This bill has to pass and it will be improved upon. Come by and listen to my video of Bernie Sanders speaking. He tells the truth about our Congress.
Merry Christmas Truth!!
The Griper: The Bible is two to three thousand years old and because it is based on oral history there are a multitude of interpretations. It's like asking three people at an accident scene what happened - none of them saw the same thing in the same way.
LP; Funny you should mention 3 people. In the Koran, three separate people had to testify to the same identical event, or word, that was said by Mohammed before it was actually entered into the Koran. I myself am more of a believer in Gnosticism, and Taoism. ---The Way---.
I think it's cool that agnostics and atheists know more about the Bible than most Christians.
And let me repost this part of the comment you don't want to understand Griper: "This isn't a class or education thing either. Highly educated people are finding their jobs outsourced. Xrays and MRI's are being read by technicians in India putting these Americans out of work. Engineering firms are exporting work to foreingn lands. Right wingers are singing the praises of countries that exploit workers with no safety laws or job benefits."
Educated men and women from good families like yours my friend. Their jobs being outsourced or benefits cut back. They did everything right. Played by the rules. Did what you tell your kids to do.
Forgive me for giving a shit about what happens to my fellow Americans Griper.
Truth,
Speaking from the other side, I would take half a loaf with the hope of improving on it later.
History tells us it's almost impossible to repeal a social program. Not that they have improved anything, but government programs tend to develop a life of their own.
Isn't it interesting that the only sector of the economy that has increased employment is government. The Department of Education is such a rousing success. The Department of Energy has really taken great steps toward our energy independence. The Post Office is bankrupt, the Department Transportation has worked wonders with airport security and speeding our way onto the plane. Ah, efficiency thy name is government.
Medicare, Medicaid, are bankrupt and Social Security won't be able to pay its obligations once my children retire. And the IRS is most assuredly a great institution that ensures that all of us pay our fair share for living in a great democracy where everyone pulls their own weight.
I could go on and on down this memory lane of government's greatest hits. Ah, government, that wonderous vehicle of fairness, justice, efficiency that has made life so carefree and easy for all of us.
I have been converted to the government religion that says government is the answer to all the ills of society and we who produce should pay the freight for a better America.
Of course, if you don't accept the religion of government, we'll fine, jail you, or generally rip you off by force to pay for the better way government can handle our lives. Amen.
PS I don't do religion arguments.
Good day sir.
You're blaming government for the selfishness of the people LaOT.
As you said about social programs. They develop a life of their own. We all want these wonderful things. we want enough air traffic controllers to keep airports runninf efficiently. we want inspectors to make sure our food is safe. We want DCFS to protect children from creeps.
But the party on "NO" has convinced us that we should'nt pay for all these things. The sissies in Congress and governing bodies on down won't do the right thing and tell us it will take more money this year to do all that is worthwhile because the selfish jerks among our populace won't stand for paying for these things. They might not vote for the congressman next election because he said we have to pay for national defense and highways.
Come up with an entity other than government that can protect and promote society as a whole.
12.23.09 - 9:51 AM
Obama Promised
Using his own words against him, the Progressive Change Campaign Committee is airing an ad in which Obama gives a campaign speech insisting on a public option he has now abandoned. The group hopes to pressure Sen. Russ Feingold of Wisconsin to drop his support of the bill unless the option is added.
"President Obama should frankly feel ashamed that he promised Americans a public option, got people to believe real change was possible, and then never truly fought for it - instead, pushing a mandate that he specifically campaigned against," said Adam Green of Progressive Change Campaign Committee.
commondreams.org
Truth,
I don't have a problem with paying for some of the programs we need, but I have a problem with paying for programs that don't function as advertised and still compel me to pay for them.
Social engineering has historically been an abysmal failure. Trillions of dollars have been spent in the effort and trillions of dollars have been wasted.
Government by its very nature is a one size fits all entity. It is deeply impersonal and functionally unable to attend to problems on an individual basis.
If all people were automatons they could be programmed to succeed. Since they aren't some fail. Believe me I've been in service occupations my whole working life, from the military, to the police, to teaching. I want to save the world.
My parents and the nuns and priests all taught me that. They also taught me there is no free lunch and its on me to succeed. My ancestors and I'm sure yours, succeeded against massive odds because they were programmed to never give up until they succeeded.
Immigrants were reviled as much as race in the US by nativists seeking to keep their jobs from intruders. They still succeeded.
Why are people less able to succeed today than these immigrants were, who had to overcome the greatest hurdle of all, language?
I don't want anyone to fail but I also don't want the government taking my success away from me. We all pay a lot of taxes and more is a backbreaker.
BTW, greed is always present in government. After all, all these great humanitarians who are passing these bills in congress are mostly millionaires who are being humanitarians on our dime. It's easy to give away other people's money.
Just some thoughts, Truth.
Good day sir.
leslie,
very nice attempt, i applaud you on it.
seeing something and then reporting on requires the reliance of memory of what happened and i agree memory is faulty.
something written, tho, does not require memory because it is the same words regardless when read. and shaw was not bringing up something that requires memory to analyze. her statement will remain here for all to see for as long as truth decides to leave it here.
so, read it and if you can find anything in that quote that would imply that helping someone would require the use of force, i'd like to see it.
if you cannot, then the accusations that those on the right are not behaving in christian manner because of their opposition to this bill is false as claimed in here.
you, yourself, declared that different interpretations could be made. if so, then how does my interpretation make those on the right less of a christian than those who interpret it differently?
Griper: I in no way implied that Shaw's post should be removed not that I disagreed with it.
And I decline from even trying to clarify anything else I said because you obviously like to twist things or you don't pay attention or you simply don't understand English.
According to politifact.com
The public option was rarely debated or even mentioned on the campaign trail
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/19/we-add-public-option-obameter/
LP; Guess you missed my post above.
RZ: I read it - I was just pointing out that there are two schools of thought. I have read and heard several sources say that he made no such promise during his campaign. I wish I had bookmarked them.
Having been a researcher in my past life I like to have 3+ sources verify a fact. Having been a news librarian, I know full well how reporters - rather than doing original research - will copy off one another, so "factual" errors get repeated and even embelished.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE&NR=1
Lets face it boys and girls. Obama is just another well groomed politician by the corps, the elite, and the mic. He just wears a different suit, and a new shiny lapel pin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDAPLb-HVcM&feature=related
RZ, my good friend. He's talking about single payer which is different from public option.
http://factcheck.org/2009/12/public-option-vs-single-payer/
Interesting comments all.
One doesn't realize how much one misses their ability to post daily when their operational brains, the computer, is down.
With all that is happening in the political sphere I am thankful the brains of the operation have been repaired.
I only wish the same could be said of our national political leadership. But then again it has been nigh on 110 years we have been adrift. So I guess it is to be expected.
and i never implied that you did either leslie.
i was just pointing that i knew the difference between what is oral and what is written, along with the reason why.
so, where did i twist your words?
The Civil Rights Act could be an example of "social engineering LaOT.
Ending slavery.
I won't be convinced that government is a failure or has no hope because a few programs were not successful. And many that failed were not because they were bad ideas. But because apathy or refusal to provide the resources necessary to make them successful made success impossible.
This could lead to a bigger discussion of how programs are funded and taxes are spent but the meme is health insurance and I'll continue that with the next post.
Griper: This is what I said:
The Bible is two to three thousand years old and because it is based on oral history there are a multitude of interpretations.
This is what you said:
something written, tho, does not require memory because it is the same words regardless when read.
But it is still based on oral history, that is, word of mouth. People don't always get things right when they write. Anyway, you are so totally wrong. This is why there are hundreds of professors, philosophers and scientists interpreting various novels, doctrines and formulas. Even a Mozart symphony can be interpreted in a number of different ways.
You said: read it and if you can find anything in that quote that would imply that helping someone would require the use of force, I'd like to see it.
If you're talking to me, I didn't even mention this.
You said: how does my interpretation make those on the right less of a christian than those who interpret it differently?
It's the people on the right who are the ones who are always proclaiming they're so Christian and anyone who doesn't agree with them is going straight to hell. It is these Christians who carry guns to health care informational meetings, who advocate killing the president and who comment that they hope a senator dies, so he can't make it for the HC vote. It is a Christian who prays for God to help him - after, after, after -he's done something naughty - a man who had supposedly been a good church goer.
Sorry for my cynicism, but I see nothing Christian in any of this.
RZ: It really doesn't matter what a candidate on the campaign trail promises. He can propose till he's blue in the face, but if Congress votes against him, what can be done but to try and try again?
At the end of the day. The only thing that really matters is. If you believe that they fought as hard as they possibly could for the well being of the people. I for one do not believe they did. Starting from the President on down. To me they are all sell outs, and shills for the corps. This nonsense about a half a loaf. Health care will never some back up again, not until it is too late. This legislation was to provide health care for all, and curtail the costs. IT HAS DONE NEITHER. It was written by, and for the ins. corps. I have been looking to become an EX/ PAT. This regime was my last hope. Now I will be accelerating my departure.
Truth,
The Civil Rights Act tried to bring about the changes that were dictated by the 13th Amendment from 1865. The government was utterly unable to enforce the 13th Amendment for almost 100 years.
However well meaning government ideas are, social engineering is beyond government control. It requires changing what is in people's hearts and minds. No legislation will ever change people's hearts and minds. Sorry that that's true but it is. No amount of money is going to change a person's mind.
"Hate Crime" legislation is a perfect example. How is it somehow worse to assault or kill someone because you hated their skin color or sexual preference? That's absurd and it makes thoughts illegal.
We may hate the thought, but it is protected by the First Amendment. Assault and murder should be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law.
Mandating health care for everyone and making some pay for others is social engineering plain and simple. I don't mean to go off topic here, but social engineering is not what government does well, regardless of the money you throw at it.
This will be another example of government trying to pay for something that forces some to pay for others. It is well meaning, but it will fail as all the social engineering legislation has.
Government is the ultimate consumer. It produces nothing.
Good day sir.
Government is the protector of our rights. When it fails it's not because government is bad. It's because we sometimes have bad people in government.
From all I've read, you look like a very good teacher LaOT. I wish all my kids had you or people like you in the classroom. You are an example of good government.
"Government is the protector of our rights."
Government, as our founding fathers so well understood, is something to be fearful of.
Every government, prior to the "American Experiment", was more a force for evil than for good. Individualism, liberty, and a proper civil society had no guarantees, they simply did not exist as a right.
Today, while our governmental framework as established and given to us by brilliant men provide for these protections, there is still no guarantee we will always have them. Government, as it grows, by its very nature is prone to the abuse of its power.
Today, while we do not have a Monarch, we do have a governmental elite that is every bit as power hungry and dangerous as any Monarch.
So I say to you TRUTH, and the rest of America, beware of whom you trust. For misplaced trust can, and will likely be, the enslaver of us all.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. 2010 is another year to carry on the fight for Liberty and Limited Government. A government accountable to We the People.
Your problem, hell all of our problem, is with those that abuse power when in government RN.
This health insurance issue is a great example of how government can work for the people. Left to their own devices, insurance companies would insure everyone until a claim was filed. Thousands of complaints are filed against Aetna and other insurance companies for dropping policy holders. Government is passing law to prevent these abuses. Unfortunately, too many don't take things like this into account when formulating their opinions on relevance and scope of government. IT's too bad thta it may take an abuse such as this affecting their own lives before rethinking their opinions. Trent Lott said "tough shit" for years to people that lost property due to floods caused by hurricanes until it happened to him.
L&OT: Beautifully expressed and I basically agree with you except on one or two points. Actually, I'm not sure they're really disagreements as much as observations.
I grew up here in TN when the struggle for civil rights began. Trust me, I saw some ugly stuff. Time and time again, people would say you can't legislate morality. I don't want some "N" dating my daughter. The government can't force me to associate with "N's," blah, blah, blah.
Fast forward about 30 years after living in parts west. Sure, there are still pockets of prejudice, but Nashville, at least, has come a very long way. Schools, churches and neighborhoods are integrated. Blacks and whites socialize and eat together at restaurants where blacks can now be served. Whites who used to object don't even blink an eye now.
It was a long slow process, but I don't think it would have happened had it not been for legislation - especially in these parts.
I understand what you're saying about hate crimes and, to be honest, I'm not sure what I think about such legislation. But I do wonder if Matthew Shepard had not been gay, would those guys have left him alone to die so brutally? Had the man in Jasper, TX not been black, would he have been tied to the back of a truck and drug down the road until he died? To me these are hate crimes. They're heinous acts where people translate their hatred into action.
I told you folks I'm old! Anyway, I wish everyone a warm and merry Christmas.
Truth: Thousands of complaints are filed against Aetna and other insurance companies for dropping policy holders.
And that's only a tip of the iceberg. I wrote a couple of articles a few years back mainly about HMOs. The results of my research would curl your hair. If you already have curls, it would straighten it. If anything, the situation is even worse now.
The compensation board members received was staggering. Imagine what it is now. And they're getting that money from premiums and denying people health care.
ahhhhhhhh i see what you are trying to say now, leslie. ok, i agree, based on how you put it this time i'd be in agreement with you in regards to many interpretations. and i covered that aspect of it in my comment also. you just ignored it.
my comment was based on the example you were using to illustrate that and nothing has been written down yet.
and regardless of its basis, what was said by shaw came from a "written" version and shaw "wrote" down in here and that is what is here for us to judge by. so, my argument stands.
if you want to convince me that shaw pulled a verse out of the Bible that backs up your ideological stance on this you're going to have to show me how "visit" is synonymous with "pay the bills." because that is the pertinent part of that quote that relates to this issue. and that, i believe, is the reason shaw used that paarticular verse.
there may be a verse of the Bible that does but you're going to have to prove that this is the one.
Merry Christmas Truth!!
"you need not fear for my children. they were taught the economics of life and know the responsibilities that come with their liberty.
and i taught them well the consequences of not taking good care of those responsibilities along with the consequences of allowing others to do what they should do for themselves."
Ah, good one Griper...
Did you teach them well?
Corporations are nothing more than individuals organized to achieve a particular goal...and yet they shirk their responsibility and they deny the obvious economics of life.
Yes, they have no problem expecting government to ensure that they are kept profitable because obviously, they do not know how to do it themselves...
Oh, but we are so quick to criticize when individuals could possbily make demands of their government...it could so easily cost us our FREEDOMS yet we all toil for corporations who have paid for what benefits them through the sacrifice of our freedoms...
CIT has recently declared bankruptcy and now they do not have to pay TARP funds back...I believe TARP funds represent an extraordinary debt and as such should not be subject to bankruptcy forgiveness and now it is announced that around 40 of the beneficiaries of TARP funds are past due on their dividend payments and I believe they need to pay the government BEFORE they pay themselves....
Tao,
"Ah, good one Griper...
Did you teach them well?"
i thank ya, Tao, for the compliment.
your example of Citi bankruptcy is a fine example off what happens to the taxes we pay when government takes on responsibilities it should not take on.
and if you have kids of teaching age yet, you might use this example as a teaching aid to remind them to vote for representatives that take better care of the taxes that they spend.
a very good example of government irresponsibility, Tao.
good one, Tao.
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