It looks like we can all rest easy folks. The Tony Perkins and family values crowd has once again successfully put the bone to gay Americans. California got it a while back. This time, decent, God fearing Americans stuck it to their fellow Americans in Maine by voting against same sex marriage there as well.
No doubt these backward thinking, deluded fools think they've struck a great blow for wholesomeness and Christian values. They also think young people will not have sex if nobody is allowed to talk to young people about sex. God forbid that gets them thinking about it. I'll bet Tony Perkins and Dick Armey thought penises and vaginas were for urination purposes only until their parents had a talk with them the day before their weddings.
These assholes and several million like them think by saying they're for "civil unions" but not same sex marriage is a slap at the Constitution as well as a slap in the face of the entire Gay community. "Separate, but Equal" was bullshit then and it's bullshit now.
Many of these jokers think they're protecting the "sanctity" of marriage, by denying Americans of a different sexual orientation the right. They really mean but won't admit it's the sanctity of their own bigoted, ignorant mindsets they want to protect.
To the assholes like Tony Perkins and others who are afraid of Gays I say don't worry. By virtue of your stupidity and closed minded religious views, I don't think many Gays want much to do with you either.
36 comments:
Same sex marriage is a civil rights issue. Period.
We cannot pretend to be the beacon of freedom and liberty so long as we keep a segment of our population in second class status.
We did it to our African-American citizens; we're doing it to our gay citizens, and it is wrong.
We will, ultimately, have same sex marriage in all the states. And those who campaign against it now will be viewed in the same light as we now see those Americans who were against civil rights for our African-American citizens.
They will be mocked and viewed with contempt.
I am an Obama loving, card carrying communist...and a firm believer in free love!
FREE LOVE FOR EVERYONE!
AS CSN&Y say in one song...
"...If you can't be with the one you love then love the one you are with...."
Decriminalize weed and lets start a free love party!
...hell, I am too old and probably would sit in the corner in a chair just falling asleep...
That's the problem with the reactionary right...
They are all way too uptight and unhappy so lets invite all of them to the party; especially the HOT one Right is Right...
We can also find out exactly how much about life the Professor of Life knows...
We can invite WALTS WORLD and show him a whole new world...
We can turn Bluepitbull into TieDyepitbull...
We can get LAOT to stand guard at the door and card folks and maybe act as the designated driver...
Oh, heck, who needs a designated driver....once you walk on the wild side you never want to go back home!
I better get an invitation!
WOOOOO HOOOOO!
Sounds like my kind of party
Everyone deserves civil rights and they deserve them yesterday, but progress is being made, not many years ago it wouldn't have made it on the ballot. The slaves were freed in the 1860s, didn't get civil rights until the 1960s, women haven't had the vote for a hundred years yet.
The 47% of the vote in Maine is pretty good, not good enough, so get it on the ballot again and if necessary, again. He who prevails, wins.
Rockync,
After a day on Pam's blog I believe that the WORLD needs a party!
Get your red dress and don't forget those go-go boots....
As disappointed as I am in 53% of Mainers voting against a right all Americans should enjoy, at least we got TAO and Rocky to loosen up.
I'm not much for hard liquor TAO but hell Brother. You want to bring some of that fine Kentucky Bourbon to the party and a bag of bluegrass blend,(Once we get that decriminalized.) I'll help you finish it all off.
Want to save the sanctity of marriage? Outlaw divorce, not gay marriage.
Truth,
I am so happy that all of you are partying. Rock on. Pot and bourbon. Well done. I don't drink liquor and I don't smoke dope, but I do tilt a few beers.
As for checking IDs, in my old age I'm getting more and more Libertarian. If you want, as an adult to smoke pot, sit in your basement, play some video games and maybe we will be a better country.
As for gays, I don't support "Don't ask, don't tell." That was the brainchild of your boy Clinton. I've said many times, if you shoulder a weapon next to me, I don't care who you're attracted to. Just shoot. I've been there. Cover my ass, with your weapon.
As for marriage, not so much. Sorry.
Good day, sir.
I hope you come to your senses on the same sex marriage issue on your own before circumstances of people close to you or your family make you rethink.
Epiphanies happen.
Truth,
Marriage is not a civil right. I love the comparison to the civil rights of AAs, but it doesn't equate. To discrimate on the basis of skin color is not acceptable.
Gays, on the other hand, want us to accept that they are born gay. I don't know, but that's a real stretch. Blackness I can see, gayness...
Live and let live is great. I think you are more libertarian than you want to admit.
Maybe I'll have an epiphany, but I don't know.
Good day sir.
LAOT: I don't know what your circumstances are (married, children?) but I can tell you unequivocally that if you had a gay child you'd know for certain that they are IN FACT born that way and you'd also change your tune real quick. Unless you're one of those people who would deny his own child because of his bigotry.
LAOT,
Look at it this way:
If people are not 'born' gay then you would be saying what?
That people choose to be gay?
Now, if you believe it is a choice then you have to ask yourself when do they make this decision and then you have to wonder why you were you not given a choice to be hetrosexual?
Did you choose?
Then, if it is in fact a choice why would any rational person choose that lifestyle? Why would a young person choose a life that puts them at odds with the vast majority of the population, is a very lonely life and in some situations life threatening?
If you believe it is something someone 'learns' then obviously, in any family, if one sibling 'learns' to be gay then it would only be logical that all siblings in one particular family should be gay...but that is not how it works.
It has to be an inherited gene.
If you believe that one can be 'treated' for ones gayness and cured then you would also have to believe that you could be treated for your hetrosexuality...
LAOT,
I second what "Anonymous" wrote. I have gay relatives, and the mothers of my gay relatives knew from the time the child was 3 years old that the child was gay. How? From the time her little boy was 3, he gravitated toward girlish toys and play. His brother went for the cars, trucks, footballs, etc., and he played with his girl cousins' dolls and kitchen sets.
Now lots of toddlers and pre-school children do this sort of thing--playing with other gender specific toys. No prob. But this child never, never played with traditionally masculine toys and continued, as he grew, in chosing feminine toys, and even dressing in feminine clothing.
This started when he was 3 years old.
LAOT, maybe you have not had a close family member who is gay and perhaps that's why you dismiss out of hand that one can be born gay.
I've seen this not only in my family, but one of my childhood friend's son. We knew he was gay from the time he was 4 or 5 years old.
To deny an American citizen the right and privileges of a legal marriage contract because of one's sexual preference is unAmerican and unConstitutional.
We do not deserve to be called the "greatest country in the world" so long as we keep a segment of our citizenry in second-class status.
Other western democratic countries have faced this issue and accept the reality that in any given population, there will be a percentage of gays, and this part of a country's citizenry should NOT have to be treated differently from the rest of the population just because of sexual orientation.
My opinion is that most of the opposition to accepting this fact of life is attributable to religious indoctrination.
That is astounding, since most religions teach that their gods are all loving and accepting of his creatures--except the ones the gods created gay.
One of my first catechism lessons as a Catholic child was the question: "Who made you?" and we were taught to answer: "God made me."
Well. If one is religious and believes god make people, then God made gay people. Some religions teach that homosexuality is an abomination to God. But how can God not love and accept what He himself made?
I can. Therefore, it follows I am more loving and accepting than god.
Tao - I was thinking about scrounging up my 8" platform shoes that were modeled after Dorothy's ruby slippers!
Once upon a time I actually danced in those things!
You might be on to something; this country is getting so crazy because we just don't party enough.
AS for the issue of gay marriage - I have been married over 30 years to the same guy. Just about everyone we grew up with has been divorced, remarried and some divorced again. A few have "come out" and are now openly gay; Something they had always known about themselves but felt they could not act on back in the day.
None of this has ever threatened to undermine my marriage.
At one time it was illegal for people of different races to marry and now it is not - none of this has ever threatened the sanctity of my marriage.
If gays are finally allowed to marry, this too will not undermine my heterosexual marriage.
The old man and I have weathered many storms in 30+ years and there have been a few times when our marriage was threatened, but that was from within. We dealt with it, we stayed committed to each other.
Marriage is not defined by a set of words, written only for a chosen few, but by an everlasting love and selfless committment. This requires maturity and higher thinking which would preclude unions between children and adults or adults and beasts(I have heard both of these examples used in a ridiculous argument)
Many heterosexual marriages do not live up to this standard as evidenced by the high divorce rate in this country. I don't hear any shouting about divorced people threatening the sanctity of marriage.
Whatever I call this agreement between my husband and myself, the legal papers, filed at the town hall call it a marriage certificate. This makes marriage a secular word - not a religious one.
This whole gay marriage argument is sad and stupid. If that is all it takes to destroy a marriage, then that union cannot be on very firm ground.
Churches, as always, should be exempt from performing marriage ceremonies that violate their doctrine,so only those that wish to need be party to the marriage, but to deny gay adults the same pursuit of happiness the rest of us enjoy and quibbling over wording is really stretching the boundaries of rationality.
It's queasy-making to see basic rights given or withdrawn by referendum. At the time the Supreme Court struck down laws against interracial marriage, a large majority of Americans supported those laws. If that issue had been decided by referendum, the racist laws would have stayed, perhaps for decades longer.
This is why things like Roe vs. Wade and the First and Second Amendments are so important. There are plenty of other rights that would be taken away by referendum in at least some parts of the country if they were not protected and "off the table".
The Bible also says that eating shellfish is an abomination so that argument is weak and hypocritical. You don't get to pick which sections of the Bible are convenient for you to follow. Follow the whole thing or shut up. Think about that next time you sit down to your lobster dinner.
Shaw, TAO, Anon, etc.,
I don't know if someone is born gay. I said gays want us to accept that. My point is none of us know with certainty if someone is born gay. I think you may want it to be that way, so in your minds it is.
There are a lot of things in the public domain that are now "settled" science. Then another discovery comes along and shoots the "settled" science all to hell.
Global warming is "settled" science, however, there remain thousands of scientists who aren't buying it.
A few years ago a skeleton was discovered near in Washington state. Named the Kennewick man, it was scientifically found to be 9,500 years old. A model was built based on the skull out of clay. That model bore European features. That's significant because that would predate the first, what we call Native Americans. If that's the case the "settled" theory that Native Americans were here before Europeans isn't factual. Maybe they are "Almost Native Americans."
Christopher Columbus almost certainly wasn't Italian he was probably Spanish. That will be news to the Italians who celebrate Columbus as the Irish celebrate St. Patrick. The point? The history books may be wrong.
The point is, science is a tricky thing. To state things as factual takes proof. What's in the human mind and heart is really a vast storehouse of the unknown.
As for choice, criminals for example, make choices everyday to commit heinous crimes and crimes against society. Why, who knows? Thrills, greed, need, I don't know. People make choices everyday that put them in tough situations. We don't know why.
As for my personal situation that isn't at issue here. I have a very close relative who is gay and I love him all the same. His lifestyle is his business, not mine. I still don't support gay marriage and I've told him so. He still loves me just the same. We agree to disagree.
As for heterosexuality, one word, procreation. That's settled science.
I will now crawl back under my rock with all the other cavemen.
Good day sir.
LAOT - you are always so civil around here,I'd hate you you to be in the dark under some mossy old stone, so we'll just hold the rock up for you until you come to your senses... ;)
The procreation argument will only get you so far as there are now many couples who choose to not procreate - therefore they should not be allowed to marry either.
You'll either change your mind or you won't LAOT. We can all take comfort that guns don't care who pulls the trigger. If that's as close as we'll be on same sex rights then so be it. We can find some common ground on other things as well.
rocknyc,
I congratulate you on your long term relationship. I've been married to a cavewoman for over 35 years. Who knows what attracts.
As for your comment, I think I need to clarify. What I meant was that the parts fit. Science. I only wish I had a key to the human mind.
I teach social studies and I'm always amazed that psychologists and other social "scientists" continue to spout their goo as if it's settled science. Wearing a white coat while you talk doesn't make you a scientist.
Thanks for the compliment. I demand that my students involved in debate respect the opposing point of view. Hearing all sides has an amazing effect on learning. Also, thanks for holding the rock up so I don't get covered with moss.
Truth,
I've ducked some lead in my life and one truism always stood out: When in battle, brothers are brothers and all the other s*** doesn't matter.
Good day sirs.
Personal to Pamela D. : I'm sorry but they had it coming Pamela. Thank you for your indulgence.
LAOT - We have something we can agree on; There is little in this world that can be considered "settled" science. Some of the science of today will be the quaint ignorant superstition of tomorrow.
Joseph Lister met so much opposition when trying to convince doctors and scientists that microbes were causing infections and death. Today, asepsis is the cornerstone of the medical profession because of his work.
You contend that since being "born gay" doesn't have an intractable scientific basis, you can deny a person's belief they were born that way. Much like the doctors of Lister's time, they couldn't see the germs so therefore any pursuit of Lister's theory was a waste of time.
I'd rather approach the world as all things are possible. Someone believes they were born gay, and there are some studies that tend to validate that belief. If it's all crap, someone will prove it one day. In the meantime, gays are human beings that have been marginalized for far too long.
I am not comfortable treating someone as a lesser being because of what I might believe.
The more important thing is what they believe.
I have a fair number of friends who are gay and the common thread between them is some variation of always having felt different in some way.
We can continue to debate this issue and still find no solution.
I'm reminded of this saying:
"For those who believe no proof is needed for those who don’t, no amount of proof is enough."
Thank you for your time and I admire your classroom debate rules. Your students will certainly learn lessons that will serve them well in life.
I'm sitting here chuckling because I used this same tactic with my four sons - they were allowed to speak their mind and state their case but the rules were: no raising their voices and no name calling or disrespectfulness.
I recall the oldest son coming to me because the youngest(11 years apart!)had broken something of his. The struggle to restrain himself was evident as he sputtered, "That, that, that...BABY!"
:~)
Truth: No apologies needed, I understand :)
Rocky: As usual you bring such thoughtful, heart-felt comments to the table. I’ve been married 22 years; not in a church, but by a JP. So, for me, “religion” doesn’t play a part in this. Although, I’m with you, no church or other religious institution should be forced to perform a ceremony that goes against its beliefs.
I am also living proof that no outside force is a threat to my marriage. My husband and I have weathered more storms than we care to count. We are each other’s beacons during the storms and as long as we see each other’s lights, there is nothing we can’t overcome…together. Our marriage is not going to change, alter or fail if same-sex marriage is legal.
I also believe that to deny gays, whether born that way or not, the right to marry someone they love, is just WRONG. They are entitled to the same rights as the rest of us. Just as blacks were entitled the same rights. This isn’t a “color” issue. It’s the “pursuit of happiness” issue. And marriage IS the pursuit of happiness. Gays have the right to feel secure, and marriage gives us that assurance. If “living together” was the same then we’d all just “live together”. Marriage has significance. People treat you differently when you are a wife rather than a girlfriend. (Substitute husband/boyfriend) Marriage symbolizes stability, loyalty and love in our society and gays want the same recognition as heterosexuals.
LOL Rocky!
Congratulations! You taught your children restraint! An amazing feat! Not many parents teach much of anything these days. In our household we don’t use the phrase “shut up”. It sounds so rude. We use “hush” or “quiet down”. It’s especially difficult when you are REALLY mad! Trust me, I KNOW! But, I’m not one of those “do as I say, not as I do” parents.
You show great restraint Pamela.
My boy and my daughter's boyfriend were in the garage two days ago putting up my old weight bench. I figured the old Cat here would give em a lesson. When I was promoting wrestling matches years ago I could bench 200lbs and curl 50 with no problems at all.
After about five minutes of stuggling with maybe a hundred lbs on the bench I got wore out and had to be helped inside. As these two ungrateful twerps laughed at me I told them to shut up and get me beer. The most embarrassing thing was when I had to ask one of them to open it for me.
God it sucks getting older.
OK Pamela, are you SURE you're not a liberal!?! :)
Seriously, Pam, you are a breath of fresh air in the somewhat stodgy halls of conservatism.
I applaud you and LAOT for your long, healthy marriages. It's good to know I'm in such good company.
With four boys I too found practicing what I preached difficult at times. I think I stayed so fit by all the laps I did around the house to calm down!
The one time I lost it, I REALLY lost it. The two oldest were teens and in the garage working on cars. A disagreement turned into a fist fight so I turned the hose on them yelling wildly, "You want to act like wild dogs, I'll treat you like wild dogs!"
They were quickly soaked and shocked and the fight ended. Not exactly restrained but effective.
Ah Truth: Age…seems it creeps up on us when we least expect it! I keep “thinking” I can do all the things I used to do when I was in my 20’s and 30’s. Well, I can, but just not without many, many time-outs in between. I most certainly don’t want to go back again, but I’d sure like the energy level back!
And hey, I thought that’s why we had kids…to open our beers, rub our feet...
Rocky: I believe it was Tao that told me I was a “Closet Liberal”! I do admit to having some Liberal views, but most of my beliefs are Conservative. And like LAOT, I try my best to see all sides, like he said: Hearing all sides has an amazing effect on learning. And learning isn’t just for youngsters.
When I found out my daughter was gay I had a conversation about it with her and this is what she told me: "Mom, I tried to like boys, I really did." And she did, she dated boys often and just WAS NOT attracted to them. She is attracted to women. LAOT, I urge you to TRY to become attracted to someone you just aren't attracted to. You can't do it. They are born that way. Period. I don't care about your science lecture. My daughter couldn't and shouldn't have to force herself to be with a man to please homophobes. Love is love. She should be able to marry whomever she wishes and be happy.
Anon,
I thank you for your reply, however I'm not a homophobe. I do admit, being afraid of heights, bullets, and idiotic drivers. So I do confess some phobias.
Your daughter is welcome to be attracted to whomever she wishes and I hope she is happy. I object to the marriage piece of this equation, not the human interaction part. I lean more to libertarian views in most things, not so much in others. People's relationships are not my business.
I object to government intervention in teaching schoolchildren about matters that should be left to parents. That's their job, not the government.
Schools teach about birth control and we have more out of wedlock pregnancies than ever. Teaching abstinance doesn't work because for the most part a lot of parents have abdicated their responsibility to the government. It's easier that way.
Schools should teach the three Rs and leave the social engineering alone.
Good day.
Rock,
Thanks for your reply. I respect your argument and bringing in a point about Lister is well taken. Although, that point can be made about anything science has either changed, proved, or posed even further questions about.
My point is there is no real settled science about human sexuality. As always your reasoned reply is appreciated.
Good day.
LAOT - Thank you for the reasoned and rational debate. Neither of us may change any hearts or minds but it is refreshing to have a discussion WITHOUT the words idiot,Nazi, socialist,moron, etc coming into play!
It seems to me that being gay is an inherited trait.
If homosexuality is a learned behavior, then heterosexuality is a learned behavior also. They are just different aspects of the same (sexual) behavior, abet at opposites ends of the spectrum. As a learned behavior, I think you would see a broad range of behavior with most of it somewhere in the middle -- bisexual behavior.
However, the curve is strongly skewed towards heterosexual behavior. The vast majority of humanity is heterosexual. Therefore I think it must be an inherited trait, not a learned one.
I have to go with Jerry's logic on this folks. And there are too many examples in nature of homosexual behavior. Penguins. Dolphins. Monkeys.
You said your piece with class and style Law and Order Teacher. I've conceded a couple arguments to you in the past but I can't this time Brother.
I agree with what Shaw Kenawe and Tao said. People are born gay and should be able to marry whomever they want. It's a civil rights issue. Homosexuality is NOT an abomination to God. That is the righties misinterpreting the Bible to support their bigoted views.
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